Beyond the Scale: Understanding Measurements of Body Weight

< Full Episode

Transcript: Beyond the Scale: Understanding Measurements of Body Weight

Season 10, Episode 3  | February 18, 2025

[MUSIC]

Welcome back to another episode of Life Time Talks. I’m David Freeman.

And I’m Jamie Martin.

And we got a great topic today — understanding measurements of body weight. You got BMI, you got body composition, and so many more different methods out there. So weight loss has always been a top health goal for many, which leaves a lot of people looking for ways to measure their body weight. There are several ways that you can actually do this. And depending on what method you choose, you’re going to have different insights to your health. So our guest today is going to help explain these metrics and give us a better picture of our body weight and our overall health. Who we got coming in today?

Paul Kriegler is here with us again. Paul is a registered dietitian and personal trainer who serves as the director of nutritional product development for Life Time. Hi, Paul.

Hi, Jamie. Hi, David.

Paul, welcome back. So let’s get right into it.

It’s a big topic today.

It’s huge. And the first thing that we do when we go into a doctor’s office, we get weighed in. And from that weight, we almost get the metric of, OK, numbers on a scale, BMI. And then we get associated to, OK, this is where you’re currently at health-wise. So why is weight associated to how healthy you are?
I don’t know. I guess we’re obsessed with classifying people. I don’t know. When you dig into it, there isn’t actually anything useful or predictive between BMI and health. There might be something later on in life. People that have higher BMIs in their later adult years actually might have some benefit.

Interesting.

So BMI, or Body Mass Index, in my opinion, it’s worthless. People shouldn’t pay attention to it.
So why do we give so much credit to this number? And how did it become the standard for how we’re defining certain — our health in many ways? Like our health status is saying, yes, you’re healthy or you’re not based on BMI in many ways.

It’s easy to calculate.

Yeah, height with weight.

Those measures. All you need is those two things, and then you can calculate this number.

Got it.

Yeah, because it’s your weight in kilograms divided by your height in meters squared. So it’s just an easy calculation. That’s why it rose to some usefulness in population-level research.

OK. So just kind of going back, going over a little bit of the stuff that’s happened in recent years. So obesity was classified as a disease by the American Medical Association in 2013. So just over a decade ago. So we’ve got that. It was then that BMI became kind of the more accepted measurement for people. But then in 2023, the AMA delegates said they approved a new policy encouraging physicians to use BMI only in conjunction with other measurements. So that’s a pretty important move to have happen, I would assume, right?

Yeah, that’s super beneficial. That means you can’t just use BMI to categorize or address your patient population. You have to use other measures. I think that’s a smart move.

So just to go back a little bit on the history of BMI, that was really something that was — a healthy BMI was based on population studies, often done in Europe. So who were the people that were being studied?

They’re trying to study the largest chunk of the population they can with as little dollars as possible. So they’re trying to gather as much information in an economical way as possible. And BMI just rose up as one of those possible measures. We’ve all heard the term “ideal body weight” too. Right?

Mm-hmm.

The origins of that, if you dig back, are Metropolitan Life Insurance Company, their actuaries, determined what weight for height people were healthiest at, the lowest cost to insure, probably over 100 years ago now. So it was just their kind of objective way to look at a population and see how they can insure people for the best coverage for them. What I’m getting at is it’s just something you can calculate. And we like numbers.

Yeah. That’s one thing you can look at. It’s a fact right there based on whatever. But it’s also not considering other things. So we’re talking about BMI being limited and flawed because we were talking before we hit record, athletes who are largely muscle could still be classified as overweight or obese because of their BMI. Let’s talk about that a little bit.

Yeah, Body Mass Index, BMI, it’s just a simple number you calculate based on height and weight. It’s extremely flawed when you’re talking about translating this metric to an individual’s situation. Because a lot of people who are otherwise healthy have a large amount of muscle mass. They’re going to qualify or probably be classified as obese on the BMI scale. So it doesn’t tell you anything about what the person is made of, or what their abilities are and that sort of thing. So for me it’s never been useful BMI.

I mean, just with that you said almost 100 years, so like very outdated and then obviously, still being practiced, but we know just like with anything, things evolve. And to be able to have a better metric to guide us to understand what health risks you may be at based off of how much fat your body actually has on its body, how much lean muscle that it has.

So I mean, I kind of said it in the intro, take us through. I talked about BMI, but I also talked about body fat or body composition, and why that does hold some value when it comes to these metrics.

Yeah. Body composition I would say almost as easy to measure or calculate nowadays as BMI, but it’s way more useful from a treatment standpoint, if you’re a doctor or a medical professional, from a coaching standpoint, if you’re a trainer or nutritionist, because you start to get into the makeup of what that individual is carrying around. What is their estimated bone density, muscle mass, lean tissue mass, nonfat mass? So without knowing some of those components, nobody can do anything useful with BMI.

Yeah. Let’s hit on some of those pieces. So you say lean body mass. We want to know that one. Bone density. That’s another one. I know we talked about it prior to jumping on, like visceral fat. Can we just name — those three right there break down what you need to know based off of those three and how that can help you in your health journey?

Yeah. Yeah. So body fat percentage or body composition measures start to describe how much of your body’s makeup is considered lean tissue versus fat tissue or adipose tissue. And then like within the adipose tissue, you mentioned visceral fat. That’s the fat that’s inside your abdominal cavity in and around your abdominal organs.

Then there’s subcutaneous fat, the layer of fat that’s between your skin and your muscles throughout your body. And then there’s also smaller amounts of intramuscular fat, literally fat tissue stored in between your muscle fibers. Visceral fat is pretty harmful. We know that. That’s what research using DEXA scans and other body composition methods are starting to reveal in the last couple decades is visceral fat isn’t just inert stored energy. It actually functions as kind of a detrimental organ.

What’s the measurement? What’s harmful? When you’re maybe red flagged if you were to measure, like is it above 5, 6? What’s the scale so people can know?

Yeah. On a DEXA scan, it’s usually measured in cubic centimeters, or cc’s. I’m blanking on the exact measures that are risk categories. But essentially, it’s something you can track over time pretty easily annually. Work with your physician on. But yeah, you want to be aware of how much total fat tissue you have and then where do you carry it.

Because if you carry it largely in the subcutaneous and intramuscular spaces, your long-term chronic disease risk is much lower than if you carry it as visceral adipose tissue. We see people of all kinds of shapes and sizes. And it turns out that where you carry your fat — because everyone has it, where you carry it can tell a lot about your future risk.

Well, and to that point with the visceral fat, I think it’s important to note the metabolically active nature of it, of visceral fat. I mean, you often think about — I remember years ago in the magazine we did an article. It was called “The Anatomy of a Potbelly,” because it’s often indicative of visceral fat. Now, that’s not true for everybody. But just as, like you said, where you carry it and if it’s around your organs, why is that so damaging from a metabolic standpoint?

What we know is that type of fat tissue starts to generate inflammatory cytokines and other hormone-like signaling molecules that create or encourage or continue inflammation throughout the rest of the body. And we’ve talked about inflammation a lot on this podcast before and in the Experience Life articles.

A little bit of inflammation and little short bursts that gets resolved, totally fine. That’s actually super beneficial. That’s why when you do a hard workout and you’re a little sore and your muscles can’t perform the same way the next day, that inflammation was the message those muscles got that they need to come back when they do repair themselves stronger and more capable and more resilient. So inflammation is very beneficial in the acute sense or cyclical sense.

Chronic, low-grade or medium-grade inflammation that’s all the time, never turns off, hard to get under control is completely destructive to the health of our bodies.

And we think of the healthy aging that we’re talking about. So still, the value as far as bone density in the value of also lean body mass as far as currency, how would you break those two down?

Yeah. So I kind of skipped past that. We got down the rabbit hole of fat tissue. But when you’re looking at what are people made of? Fat tissue and lean tissue. Lean tissue encompasses muscle, so skeletal muscle, connective tissue, ligaments, and tendons. It’s all the nonfat tissue. So bones, organs, and blood. It’s everything else.

What we have early on in adult life and throughout adolescence and early adult life is an opportunity to maximize the amount of lean tissue and the strength and resilience of that lean tissue. Because once we turn the corner around 30, 35, it gets much more difficult to gain or maintain lean, healthy tissue like bone density and skeletal muscle mass and really robust tendons and ligaments. So we have that early life window to maximize what we’re made of. And that’s going to be our insurance policy against any chronic conditions or any aches and pains later on in life.

Yeah, I mean, we all know that we can have change in body composition later in life, but to your point, it’s much harder. And the work that you have to put into it to get that changes. What does that look like? So how do we — to your point, and we’ve talked about this in other episodes, how do you put those deposits in earlier so you’re ready and you have them to rely on and call on when you need them most, right?

Yep.

OK. Got it. So let’s go into you’ve mentioned the DEXA scan. How can we measure our body composition? Because I’m curious, what are things that we can do? Other things we can do at home. Where do we need support from other people? Tell us more about the DEXA and all those pieces.
Yeah. Yeah. Historically, underwater weighing or hydrostatic weighing was the most tried and true way to get an accurate picture of body composition. It requires a really high degree of expertise. It’s pretty uncomfortable. Have you ever done it?

I have.

Yeah. It’s kind of uncomfortable. You have to go underwater, blow out all the air out of your lungs, and stay there for 10, 15 seconds. So it’s kind of invasive. It’s impractical for a lot of people. DEXA scanning is Dual X-ray Absorption. It’s a high tech application of X-rays that take pictures of slices of your body that can describe what you’re made of. So DEXA scan is considered the gold standard. Again, kind of costly, kind of inconvenient for some people.

And then there’s skinfold measurements, which were really popular in fitness centers throughout the ’90s and early 2000. It’s fairly cheap, but it does require a high degree of technical expertise on the person doing the skin caliper measurements. There’s circumference measurements. I think this is something people can easily do at home. The Lean and Tone program used to send a tape measure to people so they could measure.

Because when someone’s on a body composition change or re-composition journey, whether it’s weight loss or weight maintenance and you’re just recomposing, there’s things that are going to change throughout that process way faster than the scale changes. And that’s what I want people to understand is the number you see on the scale that can be used to tabulate your BMI, it’s going to vary 2 to 4 pounds every day. Just based on how hydrated you are and what your bowel movement pattern is.

So taking skinfold measurements or circumference measurements can be way more empowering to the individual who’s trying to change the makeup of their body. And then there’s bioelectrical impedance. This is what people see in Life Time clubs, the InBody scales. And there’s a wide range of accuracy and scale types or device types for bioelectrical impedance.

But basically, what these things are doing is they’re running a small electric current, sometimes a couple different frequencies of electric current throughout your body, and it’s estimating your total body water. And from that estimate of total body water because we know lean tissue holds a lot more body water than fat tissue does, there’s equations that go into the readout of these impedance devices that tell you or describe with a fair degree of accuracy compared to DEXA what your body composition is.

And even in the case of the InBody scale that has eight contact points and three frequencies that it runs its analysis through, that gives you readouts of each of your limbs and your torso — lean versus fat mass. And it’s got a reasonable estimate of visceral fat tissue as well.

Got it. Great.

I mean, you went over InBody scale to cap it off. What about just a traditional scale? Old school, back in your bathroom. Does it have a place still?

I mean, my early career, I was flabbergasted by some of the trainers that were old school. Old fashioned scale and a mirror, gave them everything they needed to see.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Because either the client was happy with what their weight was or how they looked, or they weren’t. Super clear. So that in itself can be a powerful motivator.

Yeah. I want to just jump back to the one you said we can do at home with fair accuracy, the circumference one. When someone wants to do that, if you send them the tape measure with lean and toned, what were they measuring? I mean, I’m assuming it was waist, hip, maybe around the arm and thigh.

Yep. Yeah. I mean, you can measure as much as you want. You can do neck. You can do shoulders. You can do bust. You can do waist, quad, calf. But the simplest are you can either calculate a waist to height ratio or a waist to hip ratio. And those can be motivating in and of themselves, or just one single measure.

I want to know what my waist is week over week.

And that’s what you use?

Yes.

Yeah.

I like what you said, the old-school mirror. Do you like what you see? I mean, because I think sometimes the question that I get a lot of is, hey, what’s the ideal body fat percentage for a woman or a guy? And I can sit here and say that, but you might not be happy with what that looks like. So I do want to — if we can still have the ranges of what is a healthy body fat percentage so people have an idea of what that is. But at the same time not getting caught up in just the numbers, how you feel, how your body is responding to the workouts and things of that nature matter too.

But what are the ranges male versus female when it comes to body fat percentage?

Yeah. Before I get to the ranges, I just want to say what matters the most is how people feel. When I was coaching clients, I care the most about how someone feels. If they don’t feel energetic and confident in their skin, there’s stuff to work on. We can identify — we don’t need to measure anything. We can just go off of subjective at that point. If they do want to measure something, I would always pick something that’s only going to be motivating to them.

That’s good.

So because there’s a psychology with it. People hate being classified as obese. People hate being labeled as underweight or skinny or scrawny. It goes both ways. So what matters the most is how do you feel? Energetic. Vital. Strong. And then to your point, do you like what you see? Is there something about your appearance that you want to work on?

Or even more important than that, I think, is abilities. Can you do as many pull ups as you want to do? Can you squat the weight you want to squat? Can you pick up your grandchild off the floor without straining your back? So there’s functional abilities and feel that I think supersede any of the measurements.

I love that.

There are norms that are published. I sent you guys the fitness categories for body composition for women. And I think the most recent one I could find was 2009 to 2013. So a lot of these are — they’re just calculated off of population norms. Of whatever population they had access to, kind of what’s the normal distribution. So it’s just purely statistics.

But depending on your age group, women and men — I’m using this as reference because I never memorize this stuff. Men typically tend to be healthiest in the 16% to 20% body fat range. Women are more like, I think, 20 to 26, depending on age. There’s slight variations depending on life cycle too. Yeah. I mean, body fat can be a motivating metric to track over time. I wouldn’t recommend people track it every day.

If they’re going to measure it using an InBody scale, for example, do it the same day of the week, under the same exact conditions every time you measure. Don’t do it after a workout. Don’t do it after you slammed a bottle of water.

I know it’s interesting because I know with the InBody they also have an app that goes with it. So it’s something that we’ll just be having access to at Life Time. I’ve done it typically on like an every three-month basis is kind of how I’ve done it, just based on how my results or how my workouts are going and different things. But I also feel like I try and do it, to your point, under those same circumstances so I can see, is there a change happening? And look for trends.

I have enough data over the last three to five years from that I can look at, oh, OK, I know what was happening at this point in my life. I think we have to think about that too. Like, what’s happening in our life? That maybe there’s some changes that are happening. This I wasn’t able to do my workouts the same way, or this circumstance changed. There’s a lot of different factors that affect it.

The most valuable assessment is the reassessment.

Yeah, exactly.

I was going to ask too, just once again, because I know of a lot of the listeners are probably wanting to know this. When it comes to — I’m speaking for our female listeners, when their cycle is here or if they had any kind of work done as far as augmentation and how that factors into when you’re doing an InBody, how certain numbers just probably will change or won’t change based off of what has been done. Can you speak to both of those things?

Yeah. Yeah. The way people carry body water changes, especially females throughout the cycle. So there’s going to be times of the month where you’re naturally third spacing water, where water isn’t in your muscles, where it’s going to be read out on that machine as metabolically active or lean tissue. It’s going to just be hanging out as kind of third space, which it’s a fancy term for it’s not in your blood and it’s not in your muscles. It’s just kind of in between.

It’s just there.

That’s going to show up as fat. Same thing as if you drink a bottle of water right before you get on that scale, that InBody, it’s basically dead weight in your stomach. It’s going to show up as fat because it’s not part of your metabolically active tissue yet. Same thing with implants. That’s also going to skew you on the fat side of the equation.

Got it. OK. So we’ve spent a lot of time talking about body fat composition and all that. I want to talk about some of the other metrics we could look at that are in conjunction with body composition. What are some helpful measurements that can help us get a better or a clearer picture of what genuine health looks like?
Yeah. Yeah. I think that’s important to point out. People get classified into the weight ranges — overweight or obese or whatever. And right, wrong, or indifferent, it’s used in the medical community. It’s encouraging to see the community say that’s not good enough on its own. It actually doesn’t predict anything for us, so we have to use other measures.

I hope there’s a day that there’s body composition metrics considered in medical evaluations. But even that’s not going to be perfect because I know plenty of people that are lean and at relatively normal weights that are metabolic messes. There’s people that are normal weight or underweight that have heart attacks. So that tells you there’s more to the story.

You opened the episode with saying obesity was officially classified as a disease in 2013. That blows my mind because there’s so many different contributing factors to that outcome. How can you call it one disease? It’s not one thing. There’s dozens of factors that play into it. And we know that. So it kind of baffles me that we’ve got it classified that way.

And when you say there’s dozens of things that could be at the root and they could be different for all of us. What might be at the root — for one person is different than another. Whether it’s maybe type 2 diabetes is a — or blood pressure or whatever that looks like. There are so many things that if we were going a little deeper than that could be addressed.

Yep. Yeah. Other metrics that should be paid attention to are nutrient levels. The nutrient levels that are easy to test should be regular parts of your health assessment because what that’s going to illuminate is, do you have the raw building materials to even start being healthy? Is your vitamin D in the tank, or is it in a good spot to support a robust immune system? And robust mood and healthy disposition, that sort of thing.

Other factors like inflammation. Like I said, if you’ve got chronic high-grade or low-grade or moderate-grade inflammation, that’s going to be problematic for dozens of systems in your body. Insulin sensitivity and glucose tolerance. And some of these things are getting easier and easier to manage or measure — measure and manage and monitor over time.

Hormone levels I mentioned nutrient levels, functional gut health measures like food sensitivities. That tells us so much more about what’s going on at an internal level in an individual that might give us — it kind of gives us the answer key of what are the priority items that we need to address first?
Yeah, where to focus the attention on, right?

Yep. Where to shine the light and where to put the energy and effort for the most bang for your buck.
I want to address some of the other nonphysiological measurements or things that could affect our health and well-being. I mean, in our preparation for this episode, you would share that there’s other low-cost measures that have a stronger health predictability than body composition, like poverty levels, loneliness. Those type of things. Why is it important to consider those factors for people?

Well, you mentioned a couple of them. It’s your social network, your security, and your spot in life. Those have impact on your mental disposition and that directly has an impact on your genetic expression. So it’s called epigenetic factors. And it also plays into your decision making process with other health behaviors.
So literally your situation makes you who you are right. It doesn’t really matter what your genes say. It’s what your environment do as an interaction to your genes that actually makes whatever’s going to come to fruition come to fruition. There’s a saying, it’s not mine, but it’s, “Genetics load the weapon and environment pulls the trigger.”

Yeah, I’ve heard that many times. Yeah, exactly. So we have a certain level of control over, but we don’t. There’s things that happen.

Yeah.

Well, I mean, I’m flipping it a little bit. I know a lot of the listeners want to know, OK, how can I now optimize to put me in a place of getting my body composition into a range that, once again, I feel strong, I know that now it’s kind of leaning more towards that healthy route? So how can we optimize body composition? Set them up for success.

Yeah, the framework — the way I look at it, the framework is really straightforward. You have to eat in a way that promotes lean tissue growth and maintenance. You have to be intentional about your movement patterns in a way that builds a strong, resilient body that doesn’t break it down too fast. So what that comes down to is you’re going to have to eat a diet that’s adequate in protein and appropriate in total energy or calories. We’ve had episodes about each of those topics.

So in practical sense, most of your plates should have a good chunk of protein on them, and lots of nutrient-dense other food like non-starchy, colorful vegetables and fruits, so produce and unprocessed carbohydrate sources. So you’re going to have to eat a whole foods-based diet most of the time.
Try not to drink your calories unless it’s a protein shake. You’re going to have to exercise regularly, and specifically muscle building and bone density building exercise, which is resistance training. Put your body under load. You have to. And there’s a tons of variety on how you can do that. And it’s all relative to where you’re starting from. So some people that load is their body weight. Some people it’s less than their body weight right. It’s in the pool. So those things have to happen.

And you have to lock in for the long term. Changing body composition is a long process. It takes a long time. There’s other things that we need to talk about as well. Sleep plays into it. Your social network plays into it. Your ability to manage stress plays into it big time. So all those things have to be worked on to change your body composition.

Yeah. It really comes back to those fundamentals and the pillars of health that we talk about all the time at Life Time. It’s movement and exercise, nutrition and supplementation, stress management, sleep, social connections, time outdoors. I mean, all of these things — I often say we sound like a broken record sometimes, like in the magazine or in other content that we create, because it’s often it’s coming back to those things that they’re principles and core to so many of the things that we want to change, potentially, when it comes to our health and well-being.

So it’s so interesting to me that we just not — I mean, we always come back to it. And it’s fundamental.
It’s so obvious it’s easy to overlook. People love to major in the minors. Pick up the newest trend in this little category or this little lane of that category. It comes to sleep optimization, or what type of workout, or what tempo to lift the weights at. No, let’s not over-complicate it. Let’s lift weights three to four times a week. Let’s move a lot throughout the day. Let’s get at least seven hours of sleep.

Let’s get protein as a focal point at every meal because it helps us manage our appetite and literally rebuild our body as a more robust, resilient structure. And it’s not rocket science. It really isn’t. And the more we can just focus on the simple, proven framework to get people in a healthier state of mind and healthier body, if that’s what they want, then let’s do it.

Yeah. So I’m going to go back to where we started. You mentioned that being weighed is one of the first things that happens when we go to the doctor’s office. Height and weight, we know that. I mean, I have heard a lot of people saying, I just don’t get weighed, or I don’t look at the number on the scale and I ask not to see those numbers. I mean, what’s your take on that? What’s your thought on that, knowing that number is really so variable and dependent on a lot of other things?

It should only be done if it’s useful to that individual. If it’s not going to motivate them, either out of optimism or fear, then it shouldn’t even be done. Most of the time it’s done wrong. Incorrectly. You’re thrown on the scale with shoes, different shoes than you wore last time. Clothes, different clothes than you wore last time. There’s a lot of those things that are just part of the routine that probably are due for a rethink.

I mean, hopefully from this episode, we want people to really know — and I still fall into that pattern like, oh, you look at that number on the scale and it has such an impact on your mental state and all those things. But let’s just keep that in mind. It’s like there’s so much more to the story that we can delve into and be doing about it too.

Yeah, there’s probably a long list of things that are more useful to measure anyway or to assess. Range of motion. Strength. Other fitness measures that translate to real-life independence and safety that probably should be part of that medical evaluation or health evaluation. We should call it a health evaluation.

That would be great. What’s the health?

Let’s look for signs of health instead of search for signs of disease.

And proactive health when we can, right?

Yeah.

Alright. So I mean, we touched on a good amount of items that empower our listeners with. But as always, we want to make sure is there anything that you want to tap into that we may have not touched on?

I’m just looking over my notes here. Jamie had the question about other low-cost measures. And just to exhaust that list, it’s poverty level, loneliness, fitness abilities, blood pressure, and smoking appear to be orders of magnitude more predictive about someone’s health than BMI.

Isn’t that interesting? Yep. I’m going to just ask you one more question then. What about genetics? I mean, you said that genetics load the weapon. For some people, is that a stronger factor than others? I’m assuming there’s probably research around that.

Yeah. Yeah. Oh yeah. I don’t think we know all that we’re going to know about the genetic interplay of conditions that produce obesity outcomes. But yeah, some people have a tougher hand to deal with, for sure. But that doesn’t mean the core principles can’t apply to them.

They’re still there for all of us.

Yep.

Awesome.

You ready for the mic drop moment?

Sure.

Alright.

Always.

I know you are. Alright. So this one right here, I mean, we had a lot of information that obviously we talked about. And the thing that stood out to me that you said, like, what makes you feel good? What is it? It’s so much bigger than just the number. So I want you to almost elaborate on the Paul-isms if you will, of what message you want to give the people listening around that might get caught up in the numbers and stuff just to keep them going and not be defeated? What would you say to them?

We talked off-camera about the sensitivity around certain terms that we threw around during this episode. Obesity, that can be a trigger term. We all have fat. No one is fat. We all have fat. And if you can just let that sink in and realize like that doesn’t matter to your character. What matters the most is what do you want to do with your physical abilities and your small sphere of things that you control on a day-to-day basis. What’s on the end of your fork? Whether or not you go lift weights with your buddies at the gym.
So to empower other people is to — what comes to my mind is people can do way more than they think they’re capable of, but they sometimes have to be told that they are capable of doing that, or they have to be encouraged and coached. And it’s not a simple process. I mean, it’s simple in terms of the things that are true for everyone — we have to eat well, we have to exercise, we have to sleep, we have to manage our stress.

It’s simple in that way. But it’s not easy to do in real life. And that’s why you need that social network. You need support of others. You need expertise that have your best interests in mind. And you need that safe space to do it in. So I think the more people internalize that and take those elements into control for themselves, the better our communities are going to be in our population. And the snowball positive effects are going to be enormous from that.

Awesome.

I love that.

Paul, always so great to have you. We want to make sure people can find you and follow your work. You have lots of articles on experiencelife.lifetime.life. Been on many podcast episodes. I feel like we need to do a tracker who’s winning right now, Sam, Anika, or Paul in terms of guests. And you’re also on Instagram @_cafepk_. We also have lots of additional resources that we’ll link at Experience Life that Paul has written, looking at some of the — going in-depth on this topic. So Paul, thank you as always.

Always.

Thanks for having me.

[MUSIC]