Being Coachable

< Full Episode

Transcript: Being Coachable

Season 3, Episode 15  | July 6, 2021

Jamie Martin

Welcome to Life Time Talks, the healthy-living podcast that’s aimed at helping you achieve your health, fitness, and life goals. I’m Jamie Martin, editor-in-chief of Experience Life, Life Time’s whole-life health and fitness magazine.

David Freeman

And I’m David Freeman, the national digital performer brand leader for Life Time. We’re all in different places when it comes to our health and fitness, but no matter what we are working toward, there are some essential things we can do to keep moving in the direction of a healthy, purpose-driven life.

Jamie Martin

In each episode, we break down the various elements of healthy living, including fitness and nutrition, mindset and community, health issues, and more. We’ll also share real inspiring stories of transformation.

David Freeman

And we’ll also be talking to experts from Life Time and beyond, who’ll share their insights and knowledge, so you’ll have the tools and information you need to take charge of your next steps. Here we go.

[MUSIC]

David Freeman

Hey, everyone. I’m David Freeman.

Jamie Martin

And I’m Jamie Martin.

David Freeman

And we have our very special guest coming in. Mr. Desmond Howard is joining us on Life Time Talks, and when we look at Desmond Howard, he has a slew, an abundance, a plethora of accolades, Heisman Trophy winner, Super Bowl MVP and champion, and also a Hall of Famer. We were talking about the topic as far as being coachable. Me, being a coach, being coached by coaches, it’s so many different things that he dropped here, and a part that really stood out to me, Jamie, was how it relates beyond sports, within your family, within your workplace. It just, it goes through so many different layers. So, what were some of the takeaways that you had from this episode?

Jamie Martin

You know, I had had a chance to do some additional digging about Desmond before, and obviously I was familiar with who he was and what he did, and I think the thing that really resonated is exactly what you said, his whole commitment to being coachable, why it’s important, but also his passion for mentorship. I think that’s so interesting because it’s so important for us to be able to reach out to people and ask for help and get guidance and inspiration and support, and I love his approach of being willing to just try. Put yourself out there in the world because there’s all sorts of opportunities for learning and growth. He’s a learner. You could sense that from him in everything he does. He’s like, he goes above and beyond to like learn that next thing, or to try something new and to discover and learn more in the world, and it’s that. It’s that like passion for learning, for being willing to be taught, and to listen. That was something he talked about, listening, and that’s such an important part of being coachable at the same time. How about you?

David Freeman

Yeah. You just said it, right? Seeking mentorship, being able to ask for help. I’ll speak from a male’s perspective. It’s so many times that ego and pride gets in the way because we don’t want to ask for help. It’s this whole macho mindset, but the reality is he said many times he sought for guidance. He looked for mentorship, you know, and that to me stood out. So, I love that, and hopefully it empowers a lot of our listeners to do the same.

Jamie Martin

I completely agree. So, before we dive into this episode, a little more background about our guest for those who might not be as familiar with him. Desmond Howard is, as David already noted, he’s a Heisman Trophy winner, a Super Bowl MVP. Of note with that is he’s one of only four players who have won both of those. He has been inducted into the College Football Hall of Fame. After 11 seasons in the NFL playing for the Washington football team, Jacksonville Jaguars, Green Bay Packers, Oakland Raiders, and Detroit Lions, Desmond began his second career in broadcasting. He’s currently in his 16^th year of serving as an analyst on ESPN’s College GameDay, and he also calls ESPN’s midweek college football games along with contributing to other programs on that network. I mean, he kind of blew me away. He’s awesome. It was fun to talk with him, and I just absolutely love his philosophy around being coachable, around mentoring, and just found this whole conversation to be really inspirational. So, I’m so pumped for our listeners to tune in. David, anything else you want to add?

David Freeman

No. Let’s not delay this any longer. Everybody, go ahead. Strike your Heisman pose, and let’s get ready to tune in to what it means to be coachable.

[MUSIC]

David Freeman

Welcome to Life Time Talks.

Desmond Howard  

Hey, man. Thanks for having me. I’ve been looking forward to this for, you know, for weeks and weeks. So, I’m excited about this opportunity. So, thanks for having me, brother.

David Freeman

Yes. Yes.

Jamie Martin

Well, I was just telling everybody that I am a native Wisconsin girl. I grew up as a Packer fan. So, Desmond, this is kind of a special little treat, and I can’t wait to tell my family, who’s still in Wisconsin, who I got to talk to today. They’re going to just freak out.

Desmond Howard  

I have to tell you that you’re part of the, I consider, the best fan base in any sport, especially any professional sport, in the country. The Packer fans are just die-hard fans, and I don’t know if you’ve ever had a chance, Coach Freezy, to go up to Lambeau Field to see a game, but listen. I got friends from Chicago. I got friends from Minnesota. I got friends from Detroit, and when they travel to Green Bay to see me play in Lambeau, all of them walked away with the same exact experience, talking about how great the fans were, how iconic the stadium is, and it’s just an all, you know, just an overall wonderful experience. So, Jamie, you’re part of one of the best fanbases in all of professional sports.

Jamie Martin

Oh. That makes my heart happy. It’ll make my whole family happy as well, so thank you.

David Freeman

And before I go into my first question, I got to know, The Big House or Lambeau Field, which one? I’m kind of already giving a hot seat question. When you think about atmosphere, being one of the biggest, I think it is the biggest stadium as far as like collegiately, how does it compare?

Desmond Howard  

Right. No, you’re right. It is the biggest stadium in college football, and I tell you what, I’ve been blessed. I really have. Blessed that I’ve been able to call my home field two of the most iconic stadiums in all of football, The Big House in college football and Lambeau in the pros, and in comparing the two, it’s like I have twin boys. I got twins, and it’s like trying to pick which one you love the most, and you just can’t, you know? My twins are fraternal twins, which means they’re different, just like The Big House is different than Lambeau, but you still love both of them equally. So, that’s the analogy that I normally go to when people ask me a question like that, Coach Freezy. I’m not trying to get off the hot seat, but that’s the best example I can give anybody because I have a personal example of that with my twin boys.

David Freeman

Great way to answer that. OK. So, let’s go ahead and dive right in.

Desmond Howard  

Alright.

David Freeman

So, as we ended up connecting about two months ago and that’s when you called me on a Men’s Health Live, and I know you reached out via DM the experience that you actually had from that workout, and I think I shared with you, I felt like it was a hoax. I’m like this isn’t Desmond Howard, like, and just knowing the person that . . . you literally are one of the individuals I grew up idolizing. Any and everybody that I grew up with . . . I’m a ’83 baby. So, when we saw you play, everybody tried to emulate what it is that you were doing. So, it was a surreal moment, but it brought me back to thinking about the best coach that I ever had in my life, right, and when you do great things in this world, great things happen in return is what my pops said to me. So, he said, David, I expect things like that to happen to you, you know, when I told him. I said guess who reached out to me, Dad? Desmond Howard. So, essentially, what he was coaching me there is talking about the reciprocity of life. So, I want to kick off with the topic, today’s topic as a whole is being coachable, and I know that’s a passion point for you.

Desmond Howard  

Yeah. Absolutely.

David Freeman

So, can you let us know what is one coachable moment that you will forever remember in your life?

Desmond Howard  

Wow. Man, I tell you what. You know, first of all, man, it’s an honor to be on your podcast because when I saw you in that Men’s Health workout, it was just something that resonated with me, not only the way you approached the workout, but after the workout you did the Q&A, and listening to your answers, they just resonated with me because those were some of the same life lessons that I heard from coaches and people who were maybe mentors of mine. So, it was like, man, I have to reach out to this young brother because, you know, there’s something there. There’s a lot of substance there in which he’s answering these questions. Sometimes, you see a Q&A and a person’s like not even really answering the question. They’re giving some like surface answers that has no substance to it, but your answers were full of substance. That’s what made me, you know, reach out to you the way I did.

One of the greatest coaching moments I had was when I was in Michigan, and you know, I was going through a tough time period. I hit a wall of adversity so to speak, and I had a mentor, and his name was Greg Harden, and Greg is still one of my best friends today. Greg just celebrated a birthday a few days ago. Anyway. I reached out to Greg, and you know, we had a relationship, and I was like, man, I don’t know about this. I don’t know if I’m cut out for this here, you know? I got this issue with this position coach, and he’s on me, and I feel as though he’s trying to make an example out of me, and I’m just not for that, you know? I’m not about that. So, I thought I would transfer to another school, and you know, and Greg sat me down, and he looked me in the eye, and he just addressed the situation. He said what makes you think if you go to another school, say you transfer to Notre Dame, what makes you think things are going to be so much better there than they are here? Like, what guarantee do you have that no matter where you go there’s going to be a better situation there than what you have here? He said sit back and think about your why, and why you’re here, and then look at the big picture.

So, he helped me, and I can go on and on, but what he did is he helped me understand the bigger picture, and he helped me really reprogram myself mentally, and once I reprogrammed myself mentally and understood the bigger picture, then everything started to fall in place. So, that was like my biggest coaching moment, and I say it was a big coaching moment because Greg’ll tell you, if you ever have a conversation with him, he’ll say, you know, I’ve coached thousands and thousands and thousands of athletes. I’ve tried to give them lessons. He’ll say Desmond listened. So, one of the greatest coaching moments is be humble enough no matter what your talents are, no matter what the situation is, no matter how much you think you know a situation, be humble enough to listen. Listen, and I listened to Greg, and that was probably, well, no, that was the defining moment that turned everything around for me at the University of Michigan. So, that’s when I was being coachable.

Jamie Martin

I love hearing about those coaching stories. I mean, I know all three of us on here are athletes of some sort. I didn’t play any sort of college or professional sport, but high school basketball even for me was my sport, and I can still go back to those coachable moments that I had, and there’s one coach in particular who I still, when I think back to the things I now share with my girls or other people, that it’s lessons from him that I continue to carry with me often through my days, and even just little, not even tactic things, like visualization was something that back in the late ‘90s was like, oh, who’s visualizing, and we thought he was a little bit crazy, honestly, at the time, but as the years pass, it was like that’s a tool that I have come back to time and time again, and every time I do I think of that coach.

Desmond Howard  

I love it. I love it.

Jamie Martin

I think of him, and I just think coaches matter. Teachers matter. It’s not just about coaches, but it’s those people who are willing to teach and guide and offer inspiration to us, right?

Desmond Howard  

Yeah. A hundred percent. Listen. Jamie, I mean, for you to say that just, it takes me back to my coach, Gary Moeller. So, when I was in Michigan, I had two head coaches, Bo Schembechler, the legendary Bo Schembechler, but once he retired, his offensive coordinator was named Gary Moeller, and Gary Moeller was big into visualization, huge into that. So, I always would visualize everything that I thought would happen on the field. So, I’m 100 percent behind you, Jamie, and I do that today, even when I do College GameDay. Like, I visualize the conversations. I visualize how the call and response is going to be. When I was in Michigan, I would always be in my room, and I’m sure, Coach Freezy, you’ve had the same experience. Jamie, you’ve had the experience in basketball. Like, you kind of sit there, and you almost get into a meditative state where you’re thinking about the game, and you’re thinking about the plays, and you almost playing the game in your head before you actually go out there and do it physically. That’s just not for sports though. That’s a lesson for life. You can visualize. You’re about to have a meeting, or you’re about to go into an interview. Visualize yourself sitting in front of that person doing the interview, anticipate the questions that you’re going to get. Not only that, but then anticipate the person’s response to those questions so then you have another response. So, visualization is big. I’m just so happy you hit on that, Jamie, because that was big for me, and it still remains a big thing for me today.

David Freeman

I love that. Listen to that real quick. So, being that the topic is being coachable, and by definition, I want everybody to hear me loud and clear here, the definition is capable of being easily taught and trained to do something better. That’s Webster right there. So, this is tricky though, right, because it states capable of being easily taught and trained to do something better, and I always talk about this, and I relate it to my kids. I know you mentioned the twins at the beginning. It’s tricky because it’s so subjective. So, when I’m coaching my son or my daughter, I’m speaking from experience, from the reps that I have. So, when I’m talking to a 5-year-old and a 7-year-old, this is foreign to them. Hey, I’m saying squat. I’m saying pump your arms, and they think they’re doing the things that I’m saying. So, that’s from the physical aspect, the skill that we’re talking about within athletics. You kind of just hit on it as far as it goes beyond athletics. So, I want you to share with us your definition on how you personally would define what it means to be coachable.

Desmond Howard  

Wow. Well, you know, earlier when I talked about listening, you know, I think it’s very important to listen, and my boys will be 15 and my daughter, you know, she’s 28. So, they, you know, went through those teenage years, which I think are the very formidable years. Those years are so formidable that that’s when you start to make an impression, and everybody else start to make an impression on, you know, your children. So, when I say be coachable, you know, it’s being humble enough to listen, to be able to put your ego to the side because it’s just tough. It’s tough for a lot of people. I believe it’s easier, you know, pre-teen, pre-adolescence for, you know, kids, too, to learn…I’m speaking of kids because you talked about your own, but I think as you get older and then you start to form your own opinion. You start to come to your own conclusions, then that’s when it becomes a little bit more of a challenge for kids to be or teenagers to be coachable. So, those who will be more open-minded and listen I think have a better chance of succeeding.

After that, I also talk about mentorship. Like, I call Greg, you know, he was my mentor. Now, he’s my, you know, one of my best friends. Don’t be afraid to seek mentorship. That’s what, you know, helped me out tremendously not only in Michigan, but after Michigan, you know? Humble yourself to seek out counsel. You know, I had a situation when I was in Green Bay where it seemed like things were dire as far as my career was concerned because I sustained an injury in camp, and you know, as camp starts to progress, team’s got to start making cuts, and because of my injury I couldn’t participate on the field, and I seeked counsel in the late great Reggie White, you know? It was like, you know, this guy’s a teammate of mine. I respect him. I respect who he is as a person. If you have anybody who is even of the same age group, but you respect that person because Reggie, you know, he’s my peer. Now, this isn’t like somebody’s dad, you know? He had kids, but we’re in the same group. So, but I still put my ego to the side to reach out to Reggie because I had so much respect for him as a person that I seeked counsel. You know, he gave me some great advice. So, I’m saying that even if you have someone that’s even in your same age group, don’t be afraid, if you have enough confidence in this person and you have enough respect in the way that this person, he or she, carries him or herself, then, and you up against a situation where you think, OK, let me get the opinion someone else that may be on the outside looking in, then never hesitate to reach out to that person and reach and get some good advice.

Jamie Martin

I love that, and I love the story you share in your Ted Talk about going to UC Berkeley and seeking mentorship from Harry Edwards I think is his, Dr. Harry Edwards, and I would love if you would share a little bit about that story because I think that’s such a great example. You know, it’s often hard to know who do I ask to be a mentor? Do I have to know them? Do I have to be connected? And I think when you shared that story in your TEDx I was so like, oh, yeah, it can be anybody, and you just have to be willing to put yourself out there. Would you share a little bit about that experience?

Desmond Howard  

Yeah. You know, Doc is my guy. I love Doc Edwards. He’s a phenomenal human being, and so I came across Doc Edwards when, I guess kids today, they call it being woke, right? You know, everyone wants to be woke, right? So, back in college, like I was woke before it was a term. So, I used to study things that took place in the ‘60s, and even before the ‘60s, and so I was always aware of, so the boycott in the ’68 Olympics, and the Black Panther Party, just all sorts of things that, you know, that talked about our history, African Americans’ history and the struggle that we had. So, I was aware of Doc Edwards, and he spoke on campus one time, and I went to go see him because I would always go to like these different lecture halls to hear different speakers speak, you know? It would anybody from a Holocaust survivor to a person who was a Black Panther Party member, you know? So, different spectrums, but I was always just fascinated with listening to these lectures. So, anyway. Doc came. He spoke, and I was like, man, that guy’s phenomenal, phenomenal.

So, now I’m up against a situation as a young student athlete and I needed some direction, and my brother who was, he was in the Air Force at the time. He was stationed out in, I think it was Bagotville, California, and so I went to go visit him, but I had a plan in mind. I had a plan, and my plan was to go to UC Berkeley because I knew that Doc Edwards worked, he was a tenured professor at the time at UC Berkeley. So, once I got out there, I told my brother what the plan was, and he hooked me up with his friend, a really nice guy named Cole, and Cole drove me to UC Berkeley, and I didn’t, you know, I went unannounced, you know? I just, hey, I’m a college student, so I kind of know how this thing goes. Most of these professors, they got office hours. So, I went to the sociology department. I said could you show me Dr. Harry Edwards’s, his schedule and when his office hours, and they showed me, you know, when his office hours were and told me his office was down the hallway, and I went down the hallway, and I sat on the floor and waited for him to come, and Cole was with me, and we just sat there.

I mean, you know, it seemed like an eternity, you know, because I was nervous. I don’t know how he’s going to receive me. Like, I have no idea how this interaction’s going to go, but I have to at least give it a try, and then all of a sudden, you know, Doc Edwards is about 6’8”, you know, bald head, dark skin, huge beard, always wearing shades, and here he comes. This imposing figure comes walking down the hallway, and I’m like there he is, you know? So, now I was trying to gather myself and compose myself, and you know, I introduced myself. I said, you know, Doc Edwards, I’m a student athlete at the University of Michigan. I’m just here visiting my brother on spring break, but I would love to just talk to you about a few things, and you know, I saw you give a lecture at Michigan, and I was, you know, really just in awe of the way you commanded the room, and I know your story, and we sat down, and we had a great, great conversation. He welcomed me in his office, obviously, and then he gave me a copy, an autographed copy of his book called The Struggle That Must Be, and I still have that book today. So, you know, it’s one of those things, like sometimes you just have to reach out to somebody and tell them your story. You may be amazed at how receptive that they’ll be to you reaching out to them in the fashion that you did.

Jamie Martin

I love the quote that you had in your Ted Talk. It said only when you decide someone’s out of reach do they actually become out of reach. So, it’s like be willing to put yourself out there. What’s the worst that can happen, right? Someone can say no, but…

Desmond Howard  

That’s it. That’s right.

Jamie Martin

It’s only when you decide it, and I thought that quote was awesome, right?

Desmond Howard  

Yeah.

Jamie Martin

So, that experience with Dr. Edwards happened in college for you. You go on to play in the NFL for 11 seasons, and then your career starts to come to an end. There’s a transition that happens. So, how did you find guidance in that space? Because going from one career, you’re a professional athlete, and shifting gears can be really challenging. It’s kind of a second phase so to speak.

Desmond Howard  

Right.

Jamie Martin

So, how did you seek guidance around it? What did you do, and how did you become coachable in that experience in your life?

Desmond Howard  

Wow. I’ll tell you what. So, I would like to probably . . .  because everyone knows me from ESPN GameDay, but before GameDay, like I did all sorts of other little shows and radio shows like to just prepare myself. So, I think it’s always important that you do the preparation that’s necessary to put yourself in the position to take advantage of a situation when it occurs. So, I used to radio. I would do local radio in Miami. I did a show called Cold Pizza, which was on ESPN2. I did The Best Damn Sports Show Period, which was on Fox, and I would like fly out to these places and do these shows just to get what they call in the industry the reps. So, you wanted to reps. You wanted to get repetition, right, and I got the reps and started to get more comfortable because it’s a different skillset, and a lot of people what happens, Jamie, is that a lot of former athletes, they think it’s just easy. They think, hey, I know the sport. I used to play the sport. All I need to do is sit down in front of a camera and talk about it, but that’s not the way it goes.

So, after doing all of the radio and different shows and getting the reps, eventually, the opportunity knocked on the door and it was ESPN’s College GameDay, and I went up to Bristol, Connecticut, auditioned with about probably I guess three or four other guys, and I ended up landing the job, but with GameDay it’s not like we have like rehearsals, you know? You go straight from the frying pan right into the fire. There’s not like, hey, OK. What we’re going to do now is we’re going to call Chris Fowler in here, and we’re going to get Kirk Herbstreit, and we’re going to bring Corso, and we’re going to rehearse this thing. That doesn’t happen at all. It’s like once you get the nod, then it’s go. It’s go time. So, what helped me though was that I never came in there with the bravado of a person saying man, listen. I got the Heisman. I got Super Bowl MVP. I played in the NFL. Like, you guys don’t have that resume, so I know this sport. I know football better than any of you guys, right, because I played at the highest level. No. That was not my approach. The approach was I know football, but these guys know TV, like they’re great at it. Like, this is their — like I consider these guys ESPN’s A-Team, right? So, I’m like this is an opportunity for me to learn from the best.

So, what I did is I checked my ego at the door, and I came in and I just sat there and looked at these guys and observed them and listened and gradually worked my way up. Like, I used to do things, back then the show might’ve been an hour, maybe 90 minutes. I would do a segment on the demo field, then I would do, later on I would do a segment on the College GameDay bus, and then maybe I would do a segment or two at the actual desk with those guys, and that allowed me an opportunity to see everything operate, how everything works, and the crazy thing is getting used to just the producer and things like, you know, the producer talking into your ear at the same time while you’re talking, you know, which is crazy, but it’s something you have to live with and work out and figure out how to do it, and gradually I worked my way up, and I remember one of my friends, he was like, man, oh, man. He said we made it because you’re on the side of the GameDay bus. Like, once they put my picture on the GameDay bus, he was like alright, bro. We made it, but it was a gradual process, and I was able to be coachable by, you know, the best in the business.

Like, I tell you. If you ever meet my daughter, Sydney, Sydney’ll tell you, like I used to come home. I was blown away how Chris Fowler, who at that point, he was the host of the show, right, and if you’re at home watching, you’re just thinking, OK. This guy’s reading from a teleprompter, you know, because everything is just so smooth, so effortless, so flawless, [noise], and he’s just like, you know, the point guard dishing out everything, dishing out facts, statistics involving Coach, involving Herbstreit, bringing in the guests, whatever he has to do. I was blown away that this man had nothing but like an index card, like with bullet points, and that was it, and I’m talking about, and he would like refer to them every now and then, you know what I mean? So, he’s just like off the dome just spitting all sorts of information. He’s doing this for at the, maybe 90 minutes, a 90-minute live TV show, and my daughter, like she just got tired of my coming home talking about how impressed I was with Chris Fowler and how he would do it, but it gave me a chance, and like I said, I learned from the best because I came in. I humbled myself. I just wanted to, you know, get all the lessons I could from them. Coach Corso, he once told me, he said hey, man. We’re in the entertainment business, he says and football is just our avenue to get there. That’s what we’re using. That’s our vehicle. He said football is our vehicle to entertain people. He said but we’re in the entertainment business, and I was like you know what? You’re right, and we’re here to entertain and tell stories. Some people take themselves too seriously, but that helped me understand the bigger picture, and then I have so much respect for these guys because they do take what they do seriously. Like, we will sit there and talk for like 30 minutes for one topic just to make sure we got it right because they wanted to make sure that we gave our audience the best product imaginable.

David Freeman

Amazing. Amazing. So, May 15, 1970.

Desmond Howard  

Yes, sir. Yes, sir.

David Freeman

Desmond Kevin Howard was born in Cleveland, Ohio. Yes?

Desmond Howard  

Yes, sir. Yes, sir.

David Freeman

And when we look at that, when we look at this, you have a hashtag, and if anybody goes to your page, and we’ll put it in the show notes as far as Instagram, you have a hashtag. It was 21 at 50, and now it’s 21 at 51, right? So, we got to talk about it.

Desmond Howard  

Yeah. OK.

David Freeman

We talk about reflection. We talk about coaching. Now, let’s talk about self-coaching and how you deal with that daily to make sure you continue to elevate healthy aging to the masses.

Desmond Howard  

Right.

David Freeman

Take us down that road, please.

Desmond Howard  

Whoa. Wow, man. Now, see, there’s a lot to unpack there. So, last year when it was 21 at 50, what happened was, you know, my birthday, like Coach Freezy said, is May 15, and we were in the thick of the pandemic a year ago, like in May we were in the thick of it, and so I couldn’t move. No one could move. We were all, I mean, you know, confined to your homes, and so I couldn’t go anywhere. I couldn’t really celebrate, and you know, 50, that’s a pretty big birthday. That’s a pretty significant birthday, and so what I opted to do was, you know, try to celebrate with people, you know, over social media, and one of the things I love to try to do is like help people out. I love helping people out, and so I came up with this hashtag because my number at Michigan was number 21, and I was turning 50, so I was like OK. We’ll go hashtag 21 at 50 because . . . now I don’t know how to say this without, you know, trying to sound, you know, like it’s, I don’t want it to sound the wrong way, but people will say you can’t be 50. Like, you just don’t look 50, like that’s what they will say. They say there’s no way you’re 50 years old, and so I’m like no, for real, like I’m 50, and they’re just like, man, like what do you do? How do you do it? And so, I decided to just share my lifestyle because it’s nothing that, you know, that I do that’s, you know, it’s like I’m not on no particular diet. I’m not on no particular regimen. Like, this is just how I live.

So, Coach, I decided to just share my lifestyle with everyone, and I called it hashtag 21 at 50. I said these are the things that I do. I mean, I drink X amount of water. I make sure I get a workout in. I said you can do whatever is comfortable for you, but make sure you do something, and then I would share recipes. You know, I like to juice. I like smoothies. I like to eat clean. I try to eat clean. I’m 100 percent honest because I tell people I have a sweet tooth. I got a sweet tooth. I’m not like, hey, no sweets whatsoever. I’m not going to sit there, because that’s not how I live, so I’m not going to sit there and say that to you, but I believe in moderation, and I believe in portion control, and I believe in eating clean, and because I just had a birthday, I had like a whole cheat weekend so to speak, but so that’s what gave birth to that, you know? I couldn’t really celebrate, so what’s the next best thing you can do? Try to reach out and help people through social media, and it’s taken on I think a mind of its own at this point. It’s a lot of fun. I enjoy it, and obviously it’s what led me to Coach Freezy.

Jamie Martin

I love it.

David Freeman

Awesome.

Jamie Martin

So, I mean, you saw an opportunity there, right, like you saw an opportunity. You know, because of the circumstances, it wasn’t ideally how you wanted to celebrate, but hey, make the most of it.

Desmond Howard  

Right.

Jamie Martin

So, there’s an opportunity. You’ve had those various moments throughout your life, like different opportunities to do things or to make choices, you know? Like, if I go through this door on the left, this might happen. If I go through this door on the right, something else. So, tell us about like some of those opportunities where had you taken the other door your circumstances might be different.

Desmond Howard  

Wow. Wow. Let me see. I guess I could tell you, you know, I grew up in the inner city in the, you know, ‘70s and ‘80s. So, things were kind of rough back then, really, really rough. I’ll tell you one story though as far as high school was concerned. So, I was visiting a high school when I was in ninth grade and I was about to, you know, come out and go to 10^th grade, and so my junior high school went to the ninth grade. So, I’m visiting this high school, and you know, these guys wanted me to come play football for them, and I’m in the gymnasium with my dad, and the guy who was hosting us, he decided to…he had to leave. I don’t know if he had to take a phone call, but he left us in the gymnasium, and so at this point, this school that we were at, they were playing a, you know, different school in basketball. So, the other school started to come into the gymnasium, and I just watched them, and I watched them, how they entered the gymnasium, how they went up to the bleachers, and I remember looking at my dad and I said, Dad, like what was that? Like, what school is that? And he looked at the program. He’s like that’s St. Joe’s. I said wow. OK.

So, then back then, I don’t know if it’s the same way now, but back then the JV, the junior varsity would play first, and the varsity would sit in the bleachers and they would watch, and then around halftime, after halftime, they would file out the bleachers and go and get ready for their game. So, I’m watching all of this. I’m looking. They got their khakis on, their blue blazers, you know, their white shirts, and whatever tie they had, and I’m like yeah. I think I want to look into that school, Dad, and so my dad looked into it. He said, you know, it’s going to be clear across town, but you know, we can try to make it happen. You know, the tuition’s going to be steep, but we can try to make it happen if that’s what you want to do, and so we looked into it, and they had a really good, really strong football program, a really strong basketball program, too. They’re like a powerhouse. I said, Dad, that’s the school I think I want to go to. He said it’s going to be a huge sacrifice on your behalf, son. A huge sacrifice. I said OK. Well, I’m willing to make it.

Now, I could’ve gone to the school that I was visiting that night, and it would’ve been really easy for me, like the transportation, getting there, it would’ve been a breeze, but to go to St. Joe’s, I had to get up around 5 o’clock in the morning and start catching the bus around 5:45 to get to school by 8:10 in the morning, and I’m talking about three buses, three city buses. Not like school buses, but three city buses to get to school. So, we’re talking about a two-hour commute every morning just to go, but it was a sacrifice that I made, that I was willing to make, you know, first and foremost to get the education because they had a strong education background, too, and had a real strong athletic program, and so had I went to the other school, I don’t think things would turn out the same way that they did.

So, that was like a real pivotal moment just as a young, you know, teenager to make that decision to like, OK. I’m going to take this commute two hours each morning. Now, I didn’t have to, you know, go two hours back because because I played sports, by the time practice was over, my dad was able to get off of work, come to pick me up from practice, and then drive me home. So, I didn’t have the two-hour commute back after school because either I was running track, or I was playing basketball, or I was playing football. So, I was always into some sport that I was there long enough that, you know, by the end of practice, if my dad wasn’t at practice, he was there by the end to pick me up and take me home.

Jamie Martin

I love it, those sliding door moments. Have you ever seen that? It was a Gwyneth Paltrow movie way back when, you know? She makes the train, or she doesn’t.

Desmond Howard  

Yeah.

David Freeman

That was super, super powerful when you think about that, that pivotal moment as far as a sacrifice at that young of an age.

Desmond Howard  

Yeah.

David Freeman

I reflect early on as well, 5 a.m. workouts with my father, pulling the tire, running around the block, and I thought it was a sort of the norm.

Desmond Howard  

Right.

David Freeman

And as I started to come into my own, right, you even said it with your kids getting into their teenage years, when I started to have a little bit more self-awareness, identity, and started making my own choices, I started, you know, puffing the chest out and saying alright. I got this. I don’t need to do this and that. It wasn’t until I got to college that I understood what my dad was doing early on to set me up for real life. Not necessarily for a sport, but just consistency, integrity. If you do anything, the way you do one thing is how you do everything. So, like, you know, just all those things came back full circle. So, for you to take that two-hour commute, understanding the vision that you had when you saw everybody come in, see the way they looked as far as on the bleachers, and you were drawn to that and you wanted that, and now when you look at all the things, the accolades, and regardless of the accolades, the character as far as who you are as an individual, how you can now pass that on to your family, that’s powerful.

Desmond Howard  

Yeah. It’s something that, you know, at the time, and just think of this, too, because you’re a parent. Like, my dad, because he’s like, OK, because even when I played Little League football, when I played Little League football, I could’ve played for the neighborhood football team, which was literally maybe three blocks from where I lived, maybe three blocks, and I would’ve been with all my friends who I grew up with in the neighborhood because that’s where they played, but I chose to go, and I’m talking about literally, literally across the tracks. Like, I would ride my bike maybe, I don’t know, it might have been like a 40 minute bike ride, 45 minute bike ride across the tracks into a neighborhood where I didn’t know anybody to play for this one team that I thought was the best team, or one of the best teams at least, in the league, and so like at a young age, like imagine yourself though as a parent, and you’re seeing your son make these critical decisions where it’s easy to just be influenced by peer pressure.

Everybody that I’ve grown up with, that I played basketball with in the park and that we played street football with, they’re playing for the neighborhood team, but me, I’m like no, and I got to go to school with these kids every day. Like, we still go to the same schools, right, elementary school, but yet, to see your son like not be influenced by peer pressure at that early age, and then make the decision like I’m going to ride my bike clear across, you know, across the tracks into a neighborhood where I don’t know anybody just so I can play football for this particular team because I think these coaches are better. I think I love the way that they go about their business, so this is what I want, and then like I say, then you move into the high school. Now, I’m taking city transportation, three buses, to go two hours across…so, like as a parent, imagine how that makes you feel though. You know, you got to say OK. I’m doing something right with this one. This one’s on the right track, and I think this one’s going to be OK, you know what I mean?

David Freeman

Yes. Yeah.

Jamie Martin

Yeah. It’s like seeing you were taking initiative. You were being proactive, and yes, you were making sacrifices, but in many ways, you were going above and beyond, you know, at the same time because you knew, you had a goal, it seems, in your mind, or you had a path in mind it seemed.

Desmond Howard  

Absolutely. No. A hundred percent. A hundred percent, and you know, that’s the thing that I try to instill in my children, you know, because they know the story and they see like some of the sacrifices. I said you got to understand, man. Don’t be afraid to go out on your own. Don’t be a follower. If you see something that you want to do, you know, don’t put yourself in the position where you don’t do it because the other kids aren’t doing it. They don’t want to do it, you know? You have to understand that you got to, you know, blaze your own trail and you got to be your own person, and that’s, you know, I learned that from my dad at an early age, and it’s been beneficial to me, but my thing was like, you know, I want to put myself in the best situation, and I don’t care what sacrifice I have to make to do it. As long as it’s going to benefit me in the long run, then I’m more than willing to do it and make that sacrifice.

David Freeman

Seeing the big picture. Being a visionary, I love it. So, Des.

Desmond Howard  

Yes, sir.

David Freeman

We got health and wellness is something that will always be relevant. No matter if it’s 2000 now or 3000, year 3000 from now, health and wellness in my eyes will always be relevant, and last year in the pandemic, we’re kind of coming out of that pandemic a little bit now, but it brought attention to an area of opportunity. Our nation being one of the most obese, if not the most obese in the world.

Desmond Howard  

Absolutely. Yeah.

David Freeman

Right?

Desmond Howard  

Yeah.

David Freeman

I want to ask Coach Desmond, since the topic is being coachable, so all of our listeners can listen in on this one. Coach Desmond.

Desmond Howard  

Yeah.

David Freeman

What tips will you give our nation on how we can help spark the change and get us to being in a place of being healthy and fit?

Desmond Howard  

Woo. That’s a really, really good question. I would say first and foremost, it starts with your mental approach to everything, you know, how you approach things mentally. Everything starts with the mental approach. So, mentally, you have to put yourself in the best position to make the best decisions that you have to, that you can make for your health. So, that’s what I would say. I would say mental health is first and foremost. Making sure you’re in the right, you know, frame of mind. Now, how do you do that? There’s no one size fits all for everybody. We know that. So, you have to come to some sort of conclusion of what puts your mind at ease, you know? It can be like, you know, I tell people all the time, nature. Like, if it’s just going outside, breathing the fresh air, going for a walk, taking in some sun. Even, you know, I’ve had coaches tell me, you know, sometimes you need to just take the shoes off, take the socks off, and be barefoot with the earth. Walk in the grass barefoot, things of that nature, and so I would say first and foremost, do that. Something that puts you at ease mentally where you’re stress free.

I’m going to tell you another big one, a huge one is try to remove technology from your hands, from your eyes for maybe 45 minutes, maybe for an hour. Like, Coach, you know, when you’re starting off anything, you have to do it in small increments. I’m not going to tell you, hey, shut the phone off for three hours, you know what I mean, because that’s just not realistic for a lot of people. Well, if you start like maybe 30 minutes, maybe 45 minutes, maybe an hour, start that in small increments, you will be amazed at the difference because it frees your minds from that connection, and it gives you that piece of mind that I’m trying to help you achieve. So, technology is a big, big piece. Remove yourself from technology gradually, and I think you will start to see the results that you want mentally. So, I believe that’s where we’ll start the mental approach to everything.

David Freeman

Love it. Love it.

Jamie Martin

David, you say it all the time. It’s one of your mottos. Mind right, body right, right? Like, you got to start there.

David Freeman

Absolutely.

Jamie Martin

To that point, you recently started last year your Wellness Wednesdays on Instagram Live. So, what’s your vision with that, and you know, what kind of reaction have you gotten from people since you started doing your Wellness Wednesdays?

Desmond Howard  

Well, Jamie, I’ll tell you what. That started off as, you know, as you guys said, because of the pandemic, there were opportunities, and it was just something to have fun and to share some of my lifestyle with people who were interested, you know, and it kind of just, man, took off into something much bigger. I was able to have some really, really good guests, like Coach Freezy, and he, you know, dropping jewels and helping people. You know, just so many different people from different walks of life, Charles Engle, I had Alex Rodriguez, Ray Lewis, just a lot of people, and so what I’d like to do now is turn it into something even bigger than that because I see its potential, and I understand, you know, how important health and wellness is to our country, and maybe do something as like a podcast where I continue to have guests and continue to just help people reach their goals. The funny thing is like it’s crazy how many people watch it, and I didn’t even know, and you know, they will make comments and tell me, hey, man, you know what? Keep up the good work, brother, you know? You inspired me to do X, Y, and Z. I was with like this athletic director the other day, and he said man, listen. I’m going to tell you this. I lost 42 pounds because of you, and I was like just blown away. Like, are you kidding me? He’s like yeah, man. He said you know what, man? Your messages, what you’re doing. I said, you know, if Des can do this, I’m going to give it a try. He said it was hard the first month. It was really tough. He said but you know, it’s just, and it’s basic stuff, like giving up like things like processed foods. He said once I started to give up the processed foods, you know, I started to see a difference. He said juice. He said man, I love drinking juice. Once I stopped drinking juice, I really started to see the difference in my face and in my body, and then my wife started to make a comment. He said man, I’ve lost 42 pounds in like 8 months he says, and I have to, you know, and I give credit to you for what you’re doing with the Wellness Wednesday, which I never knew that, you know, he was even watching like that.

So, to get stories like that is amazing. I’m sure, you know, Coach, in your industry, you hear those type of stories all the time, and what it does, Jamie, is it just fuels us. It like, it inspires us to keep going and doing what we do. One thing I like to do, I love to do, is look at people and look at them as role models, or at least people that could inspire me. Like, my sons, before the pandemic…I love to tell this story. So, before the pandemic, I used to take my twins to school, right, and when I would drive my twins to school, we would pass this older woman, the elderly lady. She must’ve been like, to me she looked like she was in her early 70s, right, but she would be outside walking every single morning on our drive to school, and you could set your watch to her. Like, I could tell, I’m being absolutely honest with you, I could tell if we were late or if we were early or if we were on time by the position we passed this old lady on our way to school because she was always out there walking at the same time every morning, and I would tell my sons. I’m like listen. She’s getting in her steps. She’s getting in her exercise. Like, she’s doing what she can do. She’s moving. I said if you don’t use it, you’ll certainly lose it, and this lady is like an inspiration to me because like you look at her, like she’s doing what she can do. How am I not going to do what I can do? So, that’s one of like, one of the great stories because it was always an inspiration just to see her out there every day doing what she could do, and Coach can tell you, and Jamie, you know, consistency, consistency is key no matter what you’re trying to do in life. If you’re trying to improve yourself, or you have a goal for anything in life, it doesn’t have to be health or wellness, it could be anything, consistency is the key.

Jamie Martin

Well, I think we’re at that moment. That’s a great way for us to transition I think into David’s two-minute drill, which we did warn you about, Desmond. So, hopefully you’re set. You got your water. He’s taking a drink.

Desmond Howard  

Alright. Yeah. Exactly.

David Freeman

Here we go. Here we go.

Desmond Howard  

Alright. Let’s rock and roll. Let’s go, Coach Freezy.

David Freeman

Alright. Snap up. Snap up the chin straps. We about to go in with the 10 hot seat questions for Coach Desmond Howard.

Desmond Howard  

Let’s do it.

David Freeman

We got Jamie on the clock. Two-minute drill.

Desmond Howard  

OK.

David Freeman

Or we should call it the two-minute warning if we’re talking about football. Let’s go ahead and get after it. Alright. Here we go. Desmond, first question. Who was your childhood hero growing up?

Desmond Howard  

Tony Dorsett. I love the Dallas Cowboys. I was a running back until I got to the University of Michigan. That’s when I transitioned to a wide receiver, but I’ll put it to you like this. Brother, when we played schoolyard football, and if anybody else said they were Tony Dorsett, we were going to have to fight about it. You could be Walter Payton. You could be Franco Harris. You could be Earl Campbell, but I’ll be damned, you cannot be Tony Dorsett because I was TD 33.

David Freeman

Alright. Alright. Period. Put a period at the end of that. OK. Alright.

Desmond Howard  

Yes, sir.

David Freeman

Most embarrassing moment?

Desmond Howard  

Most embarrassing moment. Bro, I was playing for the Green Bay Packers. We’re in the playoff game against the San Francisco 49ers. It was cold and it was rainy. That’s a nasty combination. It’s one thing to be cold, but it’s just whole other thing to be cold and wet, and so at halftime, I’m like changing my uniform and everything because it’s nasty. It’s muddy, and the first thing I was supposed to put on that I have to put on was a, it’s like a girdle with a hip protector because I had a hip injury. I had a hip pointer. So, that was the first thing I had to put on. Well, the equipment guy, he brought that to me last. So, I’m like OK. You know, I’m putting on my stuff. I’m getting there. I’m getting dressed. I’m going down the tunnel. Brother, I go down the tunnel, and it’s the mouth of the tunnel, and I hear a whistle being blown, and the next thing I heard was toe meeting leather. I’m like did they just kick the ball off? Bro, the 49ers kicked the ball off to us, the Green Bay Packers, and me, the kickoff returner, wasn’t on the field. I was coming out the tunnel.

David Freeman

Wow.

Desmond Howard  

You talk about embarrassing moment. So, Don Beebe, who was supposed to be back there, was back there, and then Andre Rison realized that I wasn’t back there. Andre Rison ran out there on the field and returned the kickoff. Oh, man. It doesn’t get any more embarrassing. I had to walk up to Coach Holmgren and he’s like where were you, Howard? I’m like bro, I was in the locker room getting dressed.

David Freeman

Wow.

Jamie Martin

I was putting on my girdle.

David Freeman

That’s awesome. That’s awesome.

Desmond Howard  

Yeah, bro.

David Freeman

Alright. Alright. Here goes the next one.

Desmond Howard  

Alright.

David Freeman

You do a lot of traveling. You said you did a lot of traveling as far as when you were getting your touches, getting ready to get on broadcast and being an analyst. What is your go-to meal when you travel?

Desmond Howard  

I try to find like either a Mediterranean, Greek, Lebanese type restaurant. I like to try to eat clean. I think when you, if you can find like a Mediterranean, you know, Greek, or Lebanese restaurant, then you’re going to be good because that’s just like a lot of clean type of meals that they like to serve, you know? I like hummus, Greek salad, you know, chicken, lentil soup, things of that nature. So, that’s normally what I look for when I’m on the road.

David Freeman

Alright. Getting us hungry over here. I like it. OK. What is your favorite movie of all time?

Desmond Howard  

Wow. Favorite movie of all time? That’s a tough one. Oh, man. That’s so hard because I’m a movie guy, like I love movies. I watch movies all the time. Oh, man. Favorite movie of all time.

David Freeman

Here, I’ll do this. I’ll do childhood. What’s your favorite childhood movie of all time?

Desmond Howard  

Childhood movie was The Wiz because it had Michael Jackson and Diana Ross. I love that. I love that.

David Freeman

Awesome. Awesome. I like it.

Desmond Howard  

You give me Michael and Diana, I was good.

David Freeman

I like it.

Desmond Howard  

Yeah.

David Freeman

There you go. Alright.

Desmond Howard  

Yes, sir.

David Freeman

Check this one out now. Next one here. Here we go. This is question number five. How many days a week do you work out?

Desmond Howard  

I try to get in five. I try to get in a good five. Yeah, five days a week I work out because I know guys like yourself, they say you got to give your body a chance to rest. So, I do try to give myself at least two days to rest. So, I try to get in, I get in at least five for sure.

David Freeman

Here goes a deep one for you. What would the current Desmond say to the 12-year-old Desmond?

Desmond Howard  

Son, buckle up because it’s going to be a hell of a ride for you, my man. Buckle up. It’s going to be a hell of ride, young man. You have no idea what you’re about to do.

David Freeman

Love it. OK.

Jamie Martin

That’s awesome.

David Freeman

Alright. Here we go. If you could meet one person in the world currently living or no longer living, who would it be and why?

Desmond Howard  

Jeez. There you go. You bring some tough questions. You bring some really, really tough questions. It would probably be . . . man. It would probably be Malcolm X. I think I would want to meet Malcolm X because his book had a profound influence on me when I read it. It’s the best book I’ve ever read. I think Alex Haley’s writing style along with the complexity of Malcolm’s lifestyle, life, was just a perfect marriage. It was a perfect combination. So, I would probably say Malcolm X.

David Freeman

Malcolm X. Brother Malcolm. OK. Love it. Alright. Here goes another one that might get a little spicy here.

Desmond Howard  

Yeah, and with Nelson Mandela a close second.

David Freeman

There you go. There you go. OK. I’ll roll with that. This one will be a little spicy. We might accidentally hit the league button on here, so I’m going to be careful with this one, but I got to do it. It’s the hot seat question. What is the first word that comes to mind when I say Ohio State Buckeyes?

Desmond Howard  

Undefeated.

David Freeman

Undefeated’s the first word that comes to mind?

Desmond Howard  

Yeah. I never lost to them.

David Freeman

Oh, OK. OK.

Desmond Howard  

I never lost to Ohio State.

David Freeman

OK, I took it as like — I was like hold on. That’s like a positive thing right there, but you mean you never lost against Ohio State Buckeyes. OK.

Desmond Howard  

No. No. Me. Yeah. Yeah. I’m like the Buckeye killer.

David Freeman

Alright. I had to make sure I put that clarity on there. OK. That makes sense. OK. Alright.

Desmond Howard  

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You may have some audience members that didn’t get it, so yeah, you got to make sure they understand.

David Freeman

Alright. For clarity, Desmond Howard never lost to the Ohio State Buckeyes. Alright. We got to make sure. Heisman Trophy pose in the endzone. There you go. Alright. Here we go.

Desmond Howard  

That’s right.

David Freeman

If you had to give up one of the two accolades between being a Heisman Trophy winner and Super Bowl MVP, which one would it be and why?

Desmond Howard  

It would have to be Heisman just because the Super Bowl is the epitome of the sport. I mean, it doesn’t get any bigger in football than the Super Bowl, and then to be crowned the Most Valuable Player of that game is just like the cherry on top. So, you know, we grew up watching our favorite teams, and I don’t care who you are, you know, anywhere in the country. You could be an Indianapolis Colts fan. You could be a Cincinnati Bengals fan, Tampa Bay Bucks fan, whoever you are, as a fan of that team, you have one goal, and that goal is to see your team win a Super Bowl. Like, that’s everyone’s goal, right? So, to be able to like, you know, I grew up watching the Super Bowl, and wanted to play in the Super Bowl, but then to play in it is like, is mind-blowing, and to win the MVP is crazy, just bananas. So, I would have to say that one, you know, that one you can’t give up. I could never give up that one.

David Freeman

I would agree to that one. Alright. Last but not least. This is a powerful one. It’s my go-to usually for all of our guests. What do you want to leave this world with as it relates to your legacy?

Desmond Howard  

Oh, man. I think that the best way I can put it is like my father is an example of it, and I try to show my sons how much my father’s an example of this. Like, just kindness to people, being really kind to people that they talk about that when you’re gone, and like I say that about my dad because random people always talk about how kind and how nice my dad was to them, and I always show my sons, like there was a guy on Twitter, and he sent the tweet out. He said, you know, I always root for Desmond Howard because my mom worked with his dad at Osborn, and she said that he was one of her favorite coworkers because he was always so nice, and then there’s another guy who sent me a message like on Facebook that I showed my sons. They’re like, man, how is your dad? Like, I haven’t talked to this guy in probably 30, 35 years, haven’t talked to this guy, and he writes me and he’s like how is your dad, man? He was just always checking on me, always so nice when I saw him at the field, you know? Just like that, and it’s consistent. So, I think I would love for that to be my legacy.

David Freeman

Kindness. I love it. I love it.

Jamie Martin

Yeah. Me, too. There’s no better message to send out there, especially now. So, Desmond, where can people follow you? Where can they learn more about you, stay connected, follow your Wellness Wednesdays, all that stuff?

Desmond Howard  

Yeah. Well, I’m on Instagram, just my name, Desmond Howard, @desmondhoward, and I just actually got on Facebook. So, you can catch me on Facebook, too. Same thing, Desmond Howard, and I’m on Twitter, Desmond Howard, too. So, everything is just my name on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter. That’s how you can catch me.

Jamie Martin

Well, thank you so much for taking the time out of your schedule to talk with us. This was awesome, and I can’t wait to tell all my Packer fan family members.

Desmond Howard  

Hey, thank you, guys. I really do appreciate this opportunity. I appreciate it. You guys are the best. So, thank you.

David Freeman

We appreciate you, brother.

Desmond Howard  

Yes, sir.

[MUSIC]

David Freeman

Thanks for joining us for this episode. As always, we’d love to hear your thoughts on our conversation today, and how you approach this aspect of healthy living in your own life. What works for you? Where do you run into challenges? Where do you need help?

Jamie Martin

And if you have topics for future episodes, you can share those with us, too. Email us at lttalks@lt.life, or reach out to us on Instagram, @lifetime.life, @jamiemartinel, or @freezy30, and use the hashtag #LifeTimeTalks. You can also learn more about the podcast at el.lifetime.life/podcasts.

David Freeman

And if you’re enjoying Life Time Talks, please subscribe on Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Feel free to write a review, and also let others know about it, too. Take a screenshot of the episode, and share it on social, share it with your friends, family, work buddies, life coach, you get the gist.

Jamie Martin

Thanks for listening. We’ll talk to you next time on Life Time Talks. Life Time Talks is a production of Life Time, healthy way of life. It’s produced by Molly Schelper, with audio engineering by Peter Perkins, and sound consulting by Coy Larson. A big thank-you to the team who pulls together each episode, and everyone who provided feedback.