What’s Behind the Shifting Drinking Culture?

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Transcript: What’s Behind the Shifting Drinking Culture?

Season 10, Episode 15  | May 6, 2025

[MUSIC]

 

Welcome back to another episode of Life Time Talks. I’m David Freeman.

 

And I’m Jamie Martin.

 

And today’s topic is talking about a shifting drinking culture. So when we look at Dry January, maybe it’s Dry July, Sober October, since 2018, the sober curious movement has taken hold with more people exploring the experience of abstaining from alcohol temporarily, something that researchers refer to as temporary alcohol abstinence challenges.

 

And in this episode, we’re going to be exploring the growing movement, its effects on our health, both physically and mentally, and how we can create places of belonging where alcohol is decentralized. And we got a special guest, Jamie, who do we have today?

 

Yes. I’m so excited to welcome Jen Veralle to our podcast. Jen is an advocate for and creator of healthy social experiences that decentralize alcohol. Her journey spans two decades of alcohol misuse, a decade of an alcohol-free lifestyle, corporate roles and entrepreneurial ventures. She is the founder of Sparktrack, an events and communications business, the co-founder of Zero Proof Collective, a community of non-alcoholic advocates overcoming barriers, shattering stigma, and increasing non-alcoholic options, and an NA enthusiast through her personal brand and media at jenveralle.com. Her July 2023 TEDx Talk, Why We Should Rethink Drinking Culture Frames Sobriety in a Sober, not Somber Lens. Jen, welcome to Life Time Talks.

 

Welcome.

 

Yeah. Happy to be here.

 

We’re so excited to have you here. So let’s start by learning a bit about you, your background, and what led you to this work where you’re really focusing on moving alcohol out from center stage?

 

Yeah. So as you mentioned, two decades of alcohol misuse and through college, through high school, using alcohol as a coping mechanism, helping to come out of my shyness, using it as a crutch to really feel like I could belong in community and social experiences. And that continued for 20 years where I was in and out of addiction and had some sober stints within there but didn’t feel like it was a problem that I was ready to address.

 

And in my 40s, I experienced burnout in a corporate environment where I happened to be marketing and events planner for a large corporation, and I literally was infusing drinking with my career in my role. And it came to a height for that year that I was with that company. So it had kind of been — I was keeping it under control as what you might hear a high-functioning alcoholic using that term. And then it just all imploded around age 40.

 

And so that journey at age 40 was, how do I do this in corporate America? Do I go away? What will people say? There was huge shame and stigma around it. And that was 12 years ago. So it took me a good year and a half and a couple, what we say, returns to use, some people say relapse, but as I learned how to have a life without alcohol at the center. And as you know, it’s everywhere in society. So it’s extremely challenging to figure out how to do life without alcohol. when it was such a huge part of my identity and everything I had known for so long.

 

That’s strong. Because what you just end it with, it becoming part of your identity whether it’s a quarter or half of the life of you utilizing it within the settings of social or maybe even by yourself at times. So everybody who’s listening right now, once you decided to stop drinking and become sober, walk us through some of those challenges. And once again, the shift that you had whether it was in the 40s, I think, you mentioned to go ahead and spark that.

 

Yeah. I think one of the biggest things that happened was my husband actually saw that it was very damaging to our relationship and to our family. And alcoholism is a disease of isolation. And I tended to think all of those years that nobody knew, and I wasn’t affecting anyone. Like, it didn’t affect my family. I had two kids at the time that were two and four. And throughout my addiction, they were growing up and being around that. So there’s no way that my behavior didn’t affect that.

 

But when it came to a head around age 40, it was my husband saying, there’s something wrong. I think you have a problem. And it was the first time anyone had ever said that to me. And it’s amazing that at that point, we had been married over 10 years, and it’s just something we always did together. So I think he was also like, well, if I’m calling you out on your drinking, I’m going to have to look at mine. And that’s something that couples deal with.

 

But at the beginning, it was not me saying, oh, I’m so excited to become sober. I can’t wait to go on this journey. It was painful, and it was a breaking down of everything I had known in terms of like, what are my values? And alcohol use had brought me to this person that I didn’t even know who I was at that time. I’d had four months of pretty active addiction in terms of hiding it. Because once you announce — I had announced at age 40, I’m going to try this thing — and then having relapses and other things that happen along the way, you go more and more inward. And it was so self-destructive.

 

And so having others know that I was on that journey helped, but it also was still very challenging. So that was a good year and a half of back and forth before I actually hit my sober date, which is July 28, 2014 over 10 years ago now. So there was a sponsor through AA involved with helping a whole community that I had to share what my drinking problem with in order to have other people see me in that.

 

Got it.

 

Yeah, I was going to say. So you had awareness brought to you, acknowledgment, and then the action that you just spoke on as far as having a support team, but that also, if I heard you correctly, it was now that it’s out and I have this team that’s aware, it’s even more of that identity like, what happens now? So we usually look to the community to be like, oh, I have this support system, which is great, but I can only imagine the pressure of failing them or myself, so I mean, that’s tough. Yeah?

 

Yeah. It’s huge. And what I found is other people didn’t know how to support me. It literally felt like going away. I say the first year of sobriety was like staying in reading books, because I didn’t want to go into a bar or a restaurant. And I had to reset my friend group. My friends that I drank with were like, oh, Jen, you’re not an alcoholic. You don’t have a problem. They didn’t know what to do with me, and so that is a challenge that happens across the board.

 

My husband also was like, well, I suppose I could go to Al-Anon. And my family didn’t know what to do, so it is very much you lean into what I did, my peer group within the Alcoholics Anonymous community, and that was like my lifeline for that first year and having a great sponsor, someone who keeps you accountable was critical for me. It’s something I couldn’t do alone.

 

Yeah. And you’re now a decade later. Congratulations.

 

Thank you.

 

That’s amazing to have that.

 

It really is. I forget that.

 

Yeah. It’s amazing. So how does that look for you today? I know you mentioned Alcoholics Anonymous. That’s been like part of your journey the whole way. Are you still really connected and active with that group? What does the world look like for you now?

 

Yeah. I think there are points over the last decade where they were very defining for me. The first year was a milestone. At year three was probably the first year I felt like I could share it in a corporate space. So think about that, right? So you’re part of corporate environments and in a professional space and you’re not drinking yet you don’t want to make a big deal about it or feel like you have to tell people why you’re not.

 

And about three years in, I was like, you know what? I’m going to own this. I’ve had enough progress. I’ve rebuilt my life. I’m ready to talk about that. And that sent me off. I was doing AA meetings probably weekly for three years. And all of a sudden, I was like, you know, I think there’s more here. I think there’s a societal shift that needs to happen, because my returns to use were directly related to my social environment. And so being a voice for that and then also my marketing and event background coming into play, I was like, we can do better. We now have these amazing non-alcoholic options which we didn’t have 12 years ago.

 

We had O’Doul’s, and we had Fre Wine, which all women drink when they’re pregnant and it’s awful. Or there’s more. There’s better now. And thus, the impetus for my TED Talk was now this convergence of me wanting to ask for something that looked elevated, that I could have at a social gathering where people wouldn’t ask why I wasn’t drinking, those products all — like through COVID, the makers were busy making all these amazing things, so there is no reason why it can’t be offered. And that, I believe, really normalizes the choice to not drink, and that’s something that I feel like has been missing. So long answer, but yeah, I feel like there’s been a trajectory of, I stay connected with the AA community, but I’ve moved on to impact corporate spaces and other social spaces.

 

Yeah. How about your personal health and well-being since making that transition? What has that been like for you?

 

Yeah, well, I think back to 20s and 30s. Many times at lifetime coming in, 6:00 AM classes but having too much to drink the night before and using that as a reset for my body to be like, oh no. I didn’t just have a night of drinking before. I’m going to reset myself. I’m going to kill myself just burning out the step classes, all the things that I love to do and then essentially go through my day at a work environment and then essentially start drinking that same night. So it was like this cycle of insanity. But I told myself that since I’m working out, since I’m able to perform at this level, I didn’t have a problem.

 

So after I started working on sobriety, I shifted back to that aggressive like I wasn’t as aggressive about working out. I think there’s a yoga practice that I want to get in touch with. And having that as part of my life slowing down a little bit, I was operating at such an insane, fast pace that I barely had time to reflect on what was happening.

 

So by changing my fitness routine and what I did to keep healthy, I moved more into yoga. Have always been a runner. That’s where I have a lot of my aha moments and reflection and sobriety and then when I started adding, seven years ago, with sauna and cold immersion. And so now, today, my routine is I get to the sauna three, four times a week, and I’m usually doing at least a half an hour workout five times a week or I make it to up yoga, which is the studio I go to and get on the mat. And it’s a beautiful practice. I’ve been doing that combination for about the last two years.

 

Wow.

 

We’re big fans of sauna and cold plunge.

 

Yeah.

 

They make a huge difference.

 

The contrast is next level.

 

Ooh, it is, yes. And we just never knew about the benefits of recovery in the cold and challenging your body and moving to the extremes, which I believe mimics what needs to happen in addiction and recovery. You need to pause and create some awareness, right?

 

To breathe and be with yourself, right?

 

Right. And for so many people, that’s just uncomfortable. And that’s why we use alcohol to cope, because we don’t want for one moment to be uncomfortable. We know how to solve.

 

Yep.

 

Well, I mean, now, when you think about the experience that you have in this space, you can now speak from this place of experience 10 years now and for these individuals, because it’s such a strong part of our culture when you go out to the outings. And then if you’re not the one doing it, it’s like, what are you doing? It’s like, now, you’re the outcast, because you’re not doing it.

 

So I guess it’s almost, how can you speak to these individuals who probably just want to drink the water and not fall into that? I can encourage them. I know you said you had to change your environment. You had to change a little bit of that. And that’s going to probably take time too.

 

Absolutely.

 

So I’m asking from your 10 years of experience how you had to navigate some of those things, so you can help the listeners out here.

 

Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think there are all sorts of tips and tricks that I learned along the way the hard way. And one of the biggest ones was if you don’t have something in your hand, people are automatically going to ask and keep asking. And so I learned to either bring my own beverages to events and galas where I would pour my own into a fancy glass.

 

And as long as I had something in my hand that maybe looked like a glass of wine, nobody even cared. No one cares. They just want to see some visual that says, it looks like you are fun. It looks like you belong, that you’re joining in this. Because if you’re standing there, nothing in your hand, and people just would consistently ask me that. So I think that’s one of the biggest things.

 

And then I think there’s also a distinction. So people in recovery typically have been told, don’t do anything non-alcoholic that resembles or might be triggering like a replacement for alcohol. So that whole community really just drinks water or club soda with a twist of lime, which is like what we call the last resort. But it’s because they’ve never been told that it might be possible to have a really great beverage in your hand that isn’t alcohol.

 

And so what we really — in the work that I do is talk about just that whole population in the middle who just wants permission to not drink. They want to go out and occasionally make a choice to have something NA. And that, I feel like that is a huge shift even in the last year or so that I have seen. And I get so excited, because it does feel like it creates belonging for more than just people in recovery.

 

Right. So that really gets to — I think it was in 2018. We mentioned about six years ago that this whole sober curious movement really came about. And more and more people are starting to say, I want to go alcohol-free even if it’s for a month or two or whatever. Some people are doing it to see what it felt like to not be doing that. How did it affect their health, their mental well-being? How did it affect their relationships? All of those pieces. But why do you think we’ve seen that shift? I mean, what’s your take on that over the past six years and even in the last year and a half, as you mentioned?

 

Yeah. Well, when I was putting my TED Talk together, I did note that date of Ruby Warrington Sober Curious book, which is huge in 2018. And I felt like that was looking at your individual relationship with alcohol, which is where I started when I got sober. And then I looked at how can I strengthen my relationship and friend groups. And so the sober curious movement might have had some people going out together who are all sober curious. But the third piece of it was, did the environment you were walking into support that?

 

So in my talk, I say, this is even shifting further from that. So be sober curious. But usually, that has even been looked at as just being something you’re individually doing during Dry January. But what does it look like to actually create a social experience with several people who choose not to drink? And that to me has been definingly different in my experiences.

 

And three or so years ago, I went to this event that was completely NA, and it was like a speakeasy and dance party. And I was like, this is so different, because no one here is altered. So I went from being the only one not drinking at a party and that feeling to just looking around going, wait a minute. All these people are substance-free and they are having an amazing time. So that inspired a lot of my work, but that whole piece of it has changed, I think, dramatically in the last year. So sober curious, but also like, how can I just be bold about it in my spaces I frequent?

 

Yeah.

 

I mean, let’s talk about as a mother. You mentioned it earlier. As a mother, can you talk about the shift that you felt? Maybe it was the response from your kids. What was the biggest change that you noticed in that space?

 

Yeah, great question. So in my 40s when I was working on sobriety, they were 8 and 10. And again, I never felt like I had any consequences outwardly. I didn’t have a DWI. I didn’t have all these social things that tell you you need to go to rehab or treatment. And so they witnessed me. I thought I kept it under control, right? We talk about it a lot, and I’ve talked with them throughout the journey about what it looks like. And I think there was a lot of, I think, as a mom, sadness and grief around how more present I could have been, because I did the things.

 

Let me tell you. I had a blog post or a blog about all the experiences we did together in the city when they were little. And I wouldn’t be drinking, but I would be hungover. So it’s like I think about presents for them. And definitely in there, as they were 10, 11 plus, I feel like they got their mom back fully in terms of being present. But yeah, there was a lot of grief and sadness. And I still look back on that. I was like, you know, sobriety is an absolute gift. Because whenever you come to it, it makes a huge impact on your family and friends and your life.

 

Yeah.

 

Yeah. Let’s talk a little bit about just alcohol in and of itself. I know when we were preparing for this episode, you mentioned alcohol is an ethanol, and why that is something for people to just be aware of. Because I do think just being aware like the impacts of those kind of things on our health, which we talk about all the time on this podcast. We talk about that. But I just think it’s important for us to just level set there like what it is and the impacts it has.

 

Yeah, I liken it to the tobacco movement where 20 some years ago the warning labels changed. And there were commercials and advertisements about the impact of smoking on your lungs. And that, we have not seen that in terms of alcohol. And I’ve always been an advocate for shifting the label. Because right now, it says, if you are pregnant or operating heavy machinery, you shouldn’t drink. And it’s like, really? There’s chronic health issues, and it’s the leading cause of all of these diseases, but yet there’s such a romanticism and there’s such impact from the big alcohol like the industry, to say, you can drink responsibly. Like that, I remember and I talk about that.

 

I heard that, yes.

 

It’s like this myth of like, well, if you can’t, there must be something wrong with you. When what we really need to look at is it’s ethanol. You can fuel your car with it, and you’re drinking this with the impression that it helps you celebrate. It helps you be all these things. And I use the term glamorized. And it very much is in media and look at the Instagram, the mommy wine culture. It is reward. And there’s so many ties to rituals and rewards in our culture with alcohol. And also confusing, because some people can drink it in moderation. So it’s extra confusing.

 

Smoking has a different trajectory. We just know that that is really not healthy, but it hasn’t been proven or generally thought of in our culture that alcohol is a drug, which it really is.

 

Yeah. Yeah, that’s an interesting — yeah, go ahead.

 

No, I was just talking about — when you talk about the exploration of, OK, I said it in the intro. When you have weather, it’s a Dry January or Sober October, it’s like a kickstart. All right. I’m about to do this for 30 days or so. And during that time, I’m assuming that there will be moments of withdrawal. Or maybe I can just do a little bit.

 

So once again, I’m going back to experience that you’ve been in this space now and you understand it. Once again, the words of advice to these individuals of when you now embark on that, take these things in consideration. Maybe remove the temptation from the house or the environment that you go out into. So how would you how would you coach them up?

 

Yeah. So I love all of those movements. And I use the term mindful drinking. So what it’s really teaching you is just to pause and recognize how much you really do want to drink. And I think the challenge is for people to not only — a lot of times people just stay in in January. They don’t even go out, because it’s easier just to not drink.

 

But my challenge would be to figure out how to integrate more non-alcoholic options and social experiences into your Dry January, so you can actually sustain that like after. Most people have not been to a wedding sober. They’ve not done any of these things. And a lot of times that’s why people do 30 days of here or there. Oh, but I have this trip coming up and there’s no way I wouldn’t — when I’m going to Mexico, I’m just not going to drink.

 

And so there’s all these life things that happen. But my encouragement is if you are doing one of those months that are very popular now is to figure out the social and environment piece. You can control your home environment, but what does it look like to go out with your friends and you’re the only one not drinking? It’s not easy.

 

To be planful and to look ahead. And I know it’s all sorts of our social belonging. We want to belong in those places. So to your point, like having more options on the menus at places or even if it’s in a work environment, having options that are available that are not an alcoholic. And I know that’s a lot of the work that you’ve been doing is working with workplaces around that. So tell us a little bit about that and how we create that space where there’s something for everyone. There really is a place for everyone to belong there regardless.

 

Yeah, it is belonging for sure. So again, my background in events and marketing and corporate has led me to look at the corporate space where many have mission statements of inclusivity and well-being. And they spend all this money bringing in well-being initiatives and things, but alcohol isn’t typically looked at. I mean, it’s tied to productivity and all these things.

 

So I think about the actual momentum, the potential momentum in corporate America to make big change. And there are less barriers in that space to me than there are in the bar and restaurants. So over the last three years, as Zero Proof Collective, we’ve talked to many bars and restaurants, and a lot of them will put a non-alcoholic option on the menu, but don’t promote it or their staff isn’t trained or the culture doesn’t fully support it. I can’t wait till that happens more.

 

But for the impact I want to have, I’ve been shifting to the corporate space, because there is just no doubt in my mind there’s liability from these two-day corporate conferences where drinking is encouraged and there’s just very tactical things that you can point out and say, if you are truly creating a culture of well-being and that’s what you want, you should have options and you should decentralize it.

 

A lot of companies aren’t maybe ready to just totally go alcohol-free, so I always encourage like, where are you at in your readiness? What is your leadership? What are the cues you get from your corporate space that are either off-putting or more accepting of choosing not to drink.

 

Right. Right.

 

I would also want to put out there, because I think it’s very good to know. When this 10-year period of being sober, also, what has activated within you from a sense of creativity, engagement, relationships, intentionality? Can you speak a little bit about how that shift and what you’ve noticed in that space?

Yeah. Wow. Yes. So in my talk, I also talk about purpose. And I believe any amount of alcohol can keep you out of your purpose. And so what I discovered was I was always creative, and have all these ideas even while in active addiction. I mean, I get crazy, good ideas. And then when it came to sober the next day looking at, how would this actually work, it didn’t. So I would say my productivity and my creativity increased dramatically. And I didn’t even realize it. I thought I was operating at a certain level.

 

So I would say, yeah, that piece of it changed. The intentionality, the vulnerability to just be able to openly speak about this and feel no shame is incredible to — I always say, if you would have told me I’d step on a stage and do a TED Talk about being an alcoholic at 10 years ago, never. Never could I have foreseen that. But it’s through all the small conversations I’ve had in community over years that people are saying, this is a message that needs to be heard. And it needs to be heard in the corporate space. It needs to be in all the spaces you’re in.

 

Right. Where we gather.

 

Where we gather.

 

These communities. Because as we’ve talked about, there’s so many gatherings we have just in regular life, milestone moments and all that where alcohol is often a part of those. But there are opportunities. I was just thinking. And I’m not going to be able to think of the name. We’re in the Twin Cities right now. I do believe there have been a couple of non-alcoholic bars or things that have opened to create space for that. And are you seeing more of that now that this is being taking hold in another way?

 

Yes. So we keep a pulse on that nationally for sure. There have been non-alcoholic bars that have opened up and come to market. And Sans Bar in Texas is actually one. The adoption of that is slow to move. So one of the biggest things I’d love to see in the Twin Cities is the increase in the non-alcoholic options on the menu of these restaurants. And there has been sober evenings where it takes over a club or something where it’s a completely non-alcoholic event. So that to me is like the stepping stones to get to a fully sustainable. What I would have envisioned is like, what does a nightclub here in the Twin Cities look like that is completely sober all the time?

 

It’s happening around the country, and it’s a matter of having enough people experiencing that in their own community to be really ready for that.

 

Right. Right. To embrace that.

 

Yeah. Well, and also to have people that do drink decide that they want to do that for the evening. It’s not just for sober people or, I should say, people in long-term recovery, because that tends to feel othering. What I would love to see is the integration of people who choose just not to drink for whatever reason come together.

 

Right. Right.

 

How’s your passport looking?

 

[LAUGHS]

 

I want to know. I want to know. How is your passport? Have you traveled outside of it?

 

Yeah.

 

1. Now, you know where I’m about to go at with this from a cultural —

 

Are you going to go to Italy? OK.

 

Yeah, well — yeah, if you want to go there, yeah, stamp the passport. But I mean, going abroad, once again, we talked about our country, but I mean world cultural thing —

 

Oh my gosh. It’s different in America. Oh my gosh.

 

1. Tell us about it.

 

It is so interesting, because the culture — let’s take Europe, for example — is very much like you can drink with your parents. It’s not as taboo and frowned upon to gather in that way. And so I think in America, there’s things where parents don’t allow kids to drink. And I’m not a fan of that either, but there’s something about the culture there that it just doesn’t feel like a big deal like it does here. It’s not a rite of passage necessarily. It’s just more like, this is what we do in family and culture. It’s usually food, surrounded with food and drink are connected. It’s just different.

 

And so I’ve had some pushback on different ideas of like, well, this works in Europe. Why doesn’t it work here? And it’s like, well, we Americans, we do everything like 100% full on, not in moderation, right? And so that distinct difference I see. And I just traveled to Italy and Spain with my kids, who are now 19 and 21.

 

We went last summer and it’s like a casual finesse with the way that NA is served. Even the wait staff is like, it’s no big deal if you order NA. And it’s like on the menu, given as much weight as all the alcoholic options. And the options, I was surprised. They’re great. They’re really great. They know what they’re doing, but they don’t maybe talk about it as much as we do in America.

 

Right. It’s not like the movement maybe —

 

Right. They don’t call it a movement just because — it’s just like a natural part of how — and that continues to fascinate me.

 

Yes.

 

Yeah.

 

Yes. But just to see that being like it can be integrated into daily life in a way that doesn’t help make people feel like, you’re over there. I’m over here. We’re having a drink or not? It’s just woven into it, which is kind of nice to be able to say like, there’s something for all of us here, and we can enjoy this meal. However, with this —

 

Well, and the pairing with food is such a big shift in how I’ve seen NA be presented. And do you want to have ethanol with that or would you like a botanical, something that actually enhances the flavor of your meal?

 

Right.

 

Right. And so a lot of times, working with bars and restaurants, the chef at a restaurant is the one that gets most excited about this. I mean, he’d rather see, yeah, a fantastic NA botanical beverage versus a Diet Coke and whiskey served with his meal that he prepared or whatever.

 

Yeah. Oh, that’s interesting. Well, there’s another level of creativity for them too, right?

 

There’s huge amount of creativity.

 

There’s also the flavor enhancing that and all those pieces, so it’s an experience.

 

Yeah, for sure itself. So great.

 

Well, Jen, did we miss anything? What did we not cover that we want to make sure we touch on today? I know there’s been a lot of ground we’ve covered, but we want to make sure that our listeners know that they can — how they’re going to connect with you too. We’ll get to that in just a minute.

 

Yeah, we covered a lot. No, I think it’s this idea of permission just to say that there has always been a line. You think about gray area drinking and there’s been TED Talks on this and this whole subject, and most people wanted to find themselves as a drinker or not or not have to say, I think I have a problem with drinking.

 

And now, what I like to just say to people is, you know what? You just can choose not to for the evening or for whatever. It’s just it doesn’t have to be that line in the sand of like, I am an alcoholic or not. And also I would say to encourage using different labels. I’ve called myself an alcoholic, but I prefer to say sober necessary just because the whole spectrum is wide open and it’s such a personal individual relationship. So it is really hard.

 

I’ve had people even say to me like, oh, are you really like an alcoholic? Because it seemed like you were functioning at a certain level and you’re just choosing not to drink for health reasons. I’m like, no. Really, it’s a life or death thing for me. And when you know that you know and I don’t feel like you should have to explain it.

 

But the permission to just explore that needs to be given to more people. And I think, again, in the corporate space is a perfect opportunity to have that conversation and then provide a non-alcoholic happy hour, so people, the pairing of the message and awareness and education along with a social experience is my dream to be able to create in more spaces.

 

I love that.

 

Mic drop moment time. Are you ready?

 

Oh sure. Yes.

 

OK, so mic drop moment. We usually end every episode with a mic drop moment to leave our listeners with something just to resonate with them, right? And this one, just going through and navigating through today’s brief and the conversation that we just had, I want Jen to go back to speak to her 20-year-old self and what words would you have for 20-year-old Jen?

 

Stop trying to do it alone.

 

Yep.

 

I tried to do it alone for so long. It’s such a pervasive disease that I just don’t know how you can’t lean into community and just be very open about needing help. I never asked for help. I wanted just to be superwoman and do it all.

 

It’s a great place to leave it. So, Jen, we want to make sure people can find you. You are on LinkedIn at Jen Gil — how do you say that?

 

Yes, Gilhoi Veralle for now and just make sure I don’t lose people.

 

Right. Exactly.

 

On Instagram @jenveralle and at Zero Proof Collective.

 

Yeah.

 

And then you have your website jenveralle.com and zeroproofcollective.com.

 

Yeah.

 

Anywhere else?

 

No, that’s great.

 

That covers it?

 

I love direct messages. And over the holiday season, I’ve got a lot of LinkedIn messages about people just wanting to find help. And I love to be a resource and connect and just be open to anyone who wants to have a conversation. It’s really important.

 

Great. Well, thank you so much for joining us. We appreciate you.

 

Thank you. We’ve had some fun. Yeah, absolutely.

 

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